[Leica] Best known photo ?

[henningw at archiphoto.com (Henning Wulff)]

At 4:48 PM -0400 5/11/04, B. D. Colen wrote:
>Thanks for the thoughtful post, Philippe -
>
>Your digital v film discussion is interesting, and I don't see your
>position as having anything to do with being a "snob," but I think the
>reality is that we have crossed the great divide from film to digital,
>and we're not going back. There will always be some people shooting film
>- largely in art photography - just as there are still some people
>experimenting with glass plates and with daguerreotypes. But just as
>film replaced glass plates as the dominant capture medium in
>photography, so digital is replacing film. Whether this is an aesthetic
>'good,' is something that will be debated ad infinitum.
>
>But as to the Robert Capa photo - here I disagree violently with you.
>
>Whether this iconic image, by the man who, in effect, 'invented' modern
>photo journalism, and without question 'invented' modern war
>photography, is a fake or genuine is of enormous importance. We are not
>discussing an art photograph - we are discussing a piece of photo
>JOURNALISM,

Journalism might transcend art on this list and in the minds of some 
members, but that is neither an absolute nor a given. While I too am 
quite convinced of the photo's authenticity, that does not 
necessarily raise it to a higher level. It works extremely well even 
if there is only a semblance of authenticity.


>that is said to have captured a moment in the war that
>served the Germans as their "training wheels" for World War II. We are
>talking about what is perhaps the best known war photograph ever taken.
>IF it were a fake, it would not be a "war photograph," it would be an
>artists conception of a war photograph. It would not be photojournalism.
>In this case, if it is not real, it is irrelevant, as irrelevant as any
>still from any movie.

That is purely a personal value judgement.

>But I think Whalen laid this debate to rest, and am convinced that this
>is a real war photograph, and deserves its place in history.
>
>Unfortunately, I think too many people today agree with you, and would
>say 'so what? It's still a striking photo.' And as we go down that road,
>we find ourselves more and more willing to accept fiction - written and
>photographic - as fact. And then where are we?

Where photography and what one man or woman in a darkroom can produce 
have always been. 'The Truth' is always much more, and essentially 
much more than one photo or even a photo essay with written 
explanation can lay bare. One photo can lay bare emotions, and at 
best a critical instant from one viewpoint, but to say it is more 
'truthful' than art is questionable.

>Best
>
>B. D.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
>[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
>Philippe Orlent
>Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 4:20 PM
>To: Leica Users Group
>Subject: Re: [Leica] Best known photo ?
>
>
>B.D.,
>
>It doesn't matter because Capa was the first to have such a kind of war
>photo published. Being the first, he shook up viewers so much that they
>looked at war differently from that moment on. It only proves his vision
>and artisity. The photo being real or fake doesn't change anything to
>that.
>
>This said, I really don't consider "a picture being not faked" as
>important for my appreciation of it. One can ask himself even if any
>picture is "real", since it is always an interpretation by the one that
>took it as in: I might see a same scene in a totally different way than
>you will. Not even speaking of framing, exposing, printing, and so on.
>
>One thing I can assure you though: these days, there isn't any
>professionally taken picture, that isn't edited digitally in one way or
>another, even if you don't notice it (which is for me a sign that the
>editing has been done as should)
>
>Which is (IMVHO) a good thing: it only leads to stronger and better
>images, that will tend to really show what's in the photographer's mind.
>
>So far for the Capa part.
>
>Since you are the first one that gets me to write more than a few well
>meant lines, also something on "the disappearing of analog in the favor
>of digital" fear (referring to the "where will we be in 10 years..."
>thread).
>
>Even if I have a digital camera (that you hardliners call a looka-leica,
>or pana-leica), even if I really adore working with it because it's the
>most ergonomical piece of digital P&S I've ever worked with, and because
>it has a very good lens (which is for me the most important part of a
>camera), and even if I'm of a generation that seems to have less
>problems with accepting the fact that with every new thing that appears,
>an older thing will disappear (I consider it a real bless to live in an
>era that will turn out to be an incredible turning point, not only for
>photography), even if most professional work I do (with professional
>photographers) is digital ATM, even then, I'm truly convinced that
>analog photography will never disappear. I even tend to buy more and
>more "classic" analog cameras ATM, because of the beauty and
>craftmanship they radiate, and the beauty I find in the imperfection of
>the images they produce.
>
>There is already a tendency in advertising (sorry, it's what I do for a
>living) to return to analog. Simply because images are getting so
>perfect ATM that they start lacking (what I cannot better describe as)
>humanity. Also because all photo's start to look alike.
>
>The lenses are super hard, the light flat or unnatural, and most PS
>editors remove all irregularities in such a way that we don't see humans
>anymore, but puppets without any character. As already said, beauty lies
>not within perfection IMO, on the contrary.
>
>True, digital is faster and is/will get less expensive (talking about
>middle and large format here, not 35mm), but these are only factors that
>apply in the kind of market situation that we have seen over the past
>years, being one of true economical crisis. Things are starting to
>revive a bit, and this will (hopefully) lead to more means for better
>and more distinguished results.
>
>Finally, please don't consider me a n00B. It's not because I (might)
>haven't read all the stuff you have, that I don't have a clue what I'm
>talking about. I suppose a considerable amount of years at art schools
>and some personal interest for the subject have aided to that.
>
>Know that I would find it truly a pity if all the above written would
>lead to the kind of discussions "old" and "young" folks have, where and
>the "old", and the "young" are both convinced that they are right.
>
>After all, what is more beautiful than passing your enthousiasm on to a
>next generation in such a way that the latter think they found truth
>themselves?
>;)
>
>Sincerely,
>Philippe
>
>BTW: I'm 38 years old, but will always be young at heart.
>
>---
>
>>  From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
>>  Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org>
>>  Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:00:46 -0400
>>  To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
>>  Subject: RE: [Leica] Best known photo ?
>>
>>  Yes, it DOES matter. If in fact the photo was posed, faked, then it is
>
>>  no longer "the best war photo of all times," because it is no longer a
>
>>  war photo. There have been countless thousands of posed war photos
>>  that are as good or better - single frames from movies. The point of
>>  this photo is that it is real - if it is.That Capa actually captured
>>  this instant that so encapsulated war, death, sacrifice, futility,
>>  etc. Doesn't matter? Good God. What does matter?
>>
>>  As I would take Whallen over someone writing for Time any day of the
>>  week. Go read the Whallen essay.
>>
>>  B. D.
>>
>>  Doesn't matter?!!
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
>>  [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf
>>  Of Philippe Orlent
>>  Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:49 PM
>>  To: Leica Users Group
>>  Subject: Re: [Leica] Best known photo ?
>>
>>
>>  In fact, it doesn't really matter, does it?
>>  Quoting:????
>>  Robert Capa, in Focus
>>  Blood and Champagne details the remarkable life of the 20th century's
>>  greatest war photographer By MARYANN BIRD, Time Magazine june 30th,
>  > 2003:
>>
>>  "It was in Spain that Capa took his best-known photo, which purported
>  > to show a militiaman a split second after he'd been fatally shot.
>>  Debate over its authenticity still rages. The "truth" of the photo,
>>  says Kershaw, is in its representation of a symbolic death. "The
>>  Falling Soldier, authentic or fake, is ultimately a record of Capa's
>>  political bias and idealism," he writes, adding: "Indeed, he would
>>  soon come to experience the brutalizing insanity and death of
>>  illusions that all witnesses who get close enough to the 'romance' of
>>  war inevitably confront." "
>>  ---
>>>  From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
>>>  Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org>
>>>  Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:34:17 -0400
>>>  To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
>>>  Subject: RE: [Leica] Best known photo ?
>>>
>>>  Ohmigod, not that again. That duck has been shot down and eaten. :-)
>>>  See, among other things, Richard Whelan's essay, Robert Capa In
>>>  Spain,
>>
>>>  in the book "Heart of Spain - Robert Capa's Photographs of the
>>>  Spainish Civil War, From The Collection of the Museo Nacional Centro
>>>  De Arte Reina Sofia, published by Aperture in 1999.
>>>
>>>  B. D.
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
>>>  [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf
>>>  Of Philippe Orlent
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:29 PM
>>>  To: Leica Users Group
>>>  Subject: Re: [Leica] Best known photo ?
>>>
>>>
>>>  And rumours go the photo is faked.
>>>
>>>>  From: Thinkofcole@aol.com
>>>>  Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org>
>>>>  Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:10:01 EDT
>>>>  To: lug@leica-users.org
>>>>  Subject: [Leica] Best known photo ?
>>>>
>>>>  This 1936 photograph, by Robert Capa of a Spanish soldier at the
>>>>  moment of death during the Spanish Civil War, was taken, I believe,
>>>>  with a Leica and is regarded among the great photograph of all time.
>>>>  -- bob cole _______________________________________________
>>>>  Leica Users Group.
>>>>  See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  Leica Users Group.
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>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  Leica Users Group.
>>>  See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Leica Users Group.
>>  See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Leica Users Group.
>>  See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>_______________________________________________
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    *            Henning J. Wulff
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